There’s no such thing as “native”, all the things you’re talking about are translation layers for hardware instructions themselves, and the overhead for doing software based translation is significantly less than hardware accelerated virtual machines- and we as an industry love those.
The reason for this is because the translations are very cache friendly and happen in userland, so the performance impact is negligible, and the scheduler on Windows is so poor compared to Linux ones that it’s even common for games to perform better on Linux than on Windows.. Which is crazy when you consider the difference in quality of the GPU drivers.
I understand that you want it to “just work”, but that tends to be the experience anyway.
You can do what you want, it’s your life, but this is not a terribly good excuse. Valves “failure” is essentially rectified.
I will add though, that it’s actually Stadia that made linux gaming the most feasible, many game engines (all of the ones I worked on) were ported to Linux to run Stadia, those ports changed essential elements of the engine that would have been slow or difficult to translate; so when Proton came around quite a lot of heavy lifting had gone away. I only say this because Valve gets some credit for a lot of work our Engine programmers did to make Linux viable.
> and the scheduler on Windows is so poor compared to Linux ones that it’s even common for games to perform better on Linux than on Windows..
I play most of my games in a window and switch away a lot. A million years ago when I was still playing world of warcraft, the system overall was much more responsive on the same hardware with wow on wine on linux than with wow natively running on windows :)
> it’s actually Stadia that made linux gaming the most feasible
Stadia was the most predatory gaming offering aside from IAP games, sorry. Buy your games again on top of the subscription? Lose them when Google cancels the service? No thanks.
Nvidia's GeForce Now was a lot more honest. Pay for the GPU and streaming, access your owned games from Steam. I'm not using it any more so I don't know how honest they still are, but I did for like a year and it was fine(tm).
The fact that Stadia advanced wine compatibility is great, but technical reasons aren't the only reasons that make a service useful to your customers.
OP is talking about Google (Stadia) throwing money at the problem and incentivizing game engine companies to better support Linux. They’re not talking about pro or anticonsumer the tech was.
So how many of those ported game engines are actually making a different on GNU/Linux gaming today?
There is certainly such thing as native, one thing is the platform where the APIs were originally designed for and battled tested, and the other is other platform emulating / translating them, by reverse engineering their behaviours with various degrees of success.
Valve's luck is that so far Microsoft/XBox Gaming has decided to close an eye on Proton, and it will run out when Microsoft decides it has gone long enough.
Specifically, I worked on those games so I know what they natively support and how things transpired behind the scenes.
Proton has absolutely no hope of working without the changes we made because of stadia, the code we wrote was deeply hooked into Windows and we made more generic variants of many things.
The Division 1 PS4 release was significantly shimmed underneath compared to the win32 and xbox releases: this became much less true over time as porting the renderer to linux (specifically debian) made us genericise issues across the OS’s and when Div2 shipped we had a lot more in common across the releases; we didn’t rely on deep hooks into Microsoft APIs as much
> this became much less true over time as porting the renderer to linux (specifically debian)
Strange how you ported the renderer to Debian, and yet you couldn't even find a link to a game that has a native Linux support.
Was there ever a port?
> Proton has absolutely no hope of working without the changes
You keep saying this as the absolute truth, and yet at the time when Stadia launched Proton already had 5k working games under its belt.
Strange how Stadia is this monumental achievement without which Linux gaming wouldn't happen according to you.... and yet no one ever mentions Stadia ever contributing any code to any of the constituent parts of what makes Proton tick. Apart from the changes that engines supposedly made to work on a yet another game streaming platform.
I don’t know how to say this without being unkind.
There is a functioning version of The Division 1, Division 2, Avatar and Star Wars outlaws that run on Linux internally at Ubisoft.
Nobody will release it because it can’t be reasonably QA’d. (Stadia was also very hard to QA, but possible, as it was a stable target and development was essentially funded).
I’m not sure what your problem is; I said - as clearly as I can - that architectural changes to the engine were neccessary for proton.
I know this, for an absolute fact, because Proton was a topic when I worked on those games and it was not until Stadia (codename Yeti) was on the roadmap, and our rendering architect lost all his hair working on it - that Proton started to even function slightly.
I’m not shilling for Stadia - there’s nothing to shill for, it is dead.
Get over yourself, if you don’t like the truth then don’t start going in on me because my reality does not match your fantasy. Sometimes corporations do things accidentally that push other things forward unintentionally.
I just want to share my thanks to Stadia because I know for a concrete fucking fact that at least some of the AAA games I worked on would not function at all on Linux without Stadias commercial interference.
All I'm saying is that "it’s actually Stadia that made linux gaming the most feasible" statement is at best contentious because in reality gaming on Linux was already made (more) feasible when Stadia had only just launched.
And Stadia used the same tech without ever giving back to Proton at all (atl least nothing I can quickly discover). So the absolute vast majority of work on Proton was done by Valve which you dismissed as "when Proton came around" (it came around before Stadia) and "quite a lot of heavy lifting had gone away" (Valve did most of the heavy lifting).
That's the extent of my "problem".
> at least some of the AAA games I worked on would not function at all on Linux without Stadias commercial interference.
So, not "actually Stadia that made gaming feasible on Linux" but "because Stadia used all the same tech, and there were possible commercial incentives early on until Google completely dropped the ball, bigger studios also invested in compatibility with the tech stack"
Stadia did a lot to help by being a stable target and by being seen as commercially viable. Google also helped a lot to aid developers, not just financially.
That they didn’t contribute code to proton doesn’t factor at all, I just hate to see people not get their dues for their part in the prolification of Linux gaming- because I saw it first hand.
You are labouring under the delusion that I’ve implied Proton did nothing, no, they levied a lot of existing technology and put in a lot of polish. They were helped by Stadia, by Wine, by DXVK and others.
They didn’t do it alone, that doesn’t minimise their contribution, it contextualises them.
Also: Stadia ports of games were native, they did not use proton- it was architecture changes of the games themselves that made proton work better- not Google making proton itself function better.
That proton was running some games is a weird revisionist take, very few AAA games ran at all, those that did were super old and there was always some crazy weird bugs- proton got better but also AAA games coalesced into conforming to linux-y paradigms underneath better- so support got better much quicker than expected. You can even see this if you track the “gold” released games over years, some of the worst supported games for Proton are from 2015-16; before stadia but after game complexity started rocketing up with next game engines of the day.
Hope that helps, because honestly this conversation is like talking to a brick wall.
> They didn’t do it alone, that doesn’t minimise their contribution, it contextualises them.
Oh, you very much minimised their contribution. From "when Proton came" (again, Proton came before Stadia) to "Stadia made gaming feasible on Linux" (when Proton made it feasible before Stadia)
> Also: Stadia ports of games were native, they did not use proton- it was architecture changes of the games themselves that made proton work better- not Google making proton itself function better.
So, Stadie games were Linux ports. But as a result of this there are still literally no Linux ports. None of the tech behind Stadia ever made it back into software behind Proton. And "native stadia ports" are somehow responsible for more games that target Windows and DirectX to run better via Proton
> That proton was running some games is a weird revisionist take
Funny to hear this coming from a revisionist. I literally provided you with links you carefully ignored
--- start quote ---
A look over the ProtonDB reports for June 2019, over 5.5K games reported to work with Steam Play
> You can even see this if you track the “gold” released games over years, some of the worst supported games for Proton are from 2015-16; before stadia but after game complexity started rocketing up with next game engines of the day.
Or because the actual heavy lifting that Valve did with Proton paid off, and not the nebulous "native ports" and code that never saw the light of day.
> because honestly this conversation is like talking to a brick wall.
Unreal can target Linux, sure, but not all of the plugins you might use will, nor any of your own plugins.
Unreal is almost worse because their first party tools (UGS, Horde) will not work on Linux, so you have to treat linux as a console, and honestly the market share isn't there to justify it.
Speaking from experience, Helldivers 2 and Monster Hunter Wilds both ran better on Linux from day one before any special fixes and still do - I'm not sure what "original design and battled testing" is worth or good for if the underlying Kernel and/or OS is a mess.
Stadia's impact on gaming in general is next to zero. And given that the vast majority of gaming on Linux is happening via Proton, its impact on gaming on Linux is similarly next to zero.
What games have you made to justify this statement?
I worked closely with productions using proprietary game engines, I feel qualified in stating that Stadia had an outsized impact on our development process in a way that helped proton succeed.
That you don’t see it as an end user, is exactly my point.
You don't have to be a chef to judge what's coming out of the kitchen.
What is the objective impact of Stadia which at its height had a whopping 307 titles [1]? At the time of writing ProtonDB lists 6806 titles as "platinum, works perfectly out of the box" and 4839 games as "gold, works perfectly after tweaks". Steam Deck alone has almost 5x the number of games with "verified" status [2].
What games are being made for Linux thanks to Stadia, and don't just target DirectX and run through Proton? How many Stadia games were ported to Linux thanks to Stadia?
Also, to put things into perspective. Proton was launched in 2018. Stadia was launched in 2019.
In 2019 there were already over 5000 games that worked on Proton. [3]
In 2022 there already were more games with verified status for Steam Deck than there were games for Stadia, and 8 times more games verified to work by users [4]. Stadia shutdown was announced half a year after the article at [4].
Stadia had zero impact on gaming in general and on gaming on Linux in particular as judged by the results and objective reality. Even the games you showed as examples don't support Linux, only target Windows, and are only playable on Linux through Proton [5]
> I feel qualified in stating that Stadia had an outsized impact on our development process in a way that helped proton succeed.
> That you don’t see it as an end user, is exactly my point.
It's strange to claim things like "when Proton came along" when Proton was there before Stadia and already had over 5k games working in the year when Stadia only just launched.
It's strange to claim outsized impact on development process when there are no outcomes targeting anything even remotely close to Linux development, with studios targeting Windows as they have always done.
It's strange to claim Stadia had outsized impact when none of the work translated into any games outside Stadia. When Stadia did not contribute any significant work to the tech that is running Proton. In 2022 they even started work on their own emulation layer that went nowhere and AFAIK never contributed to anything [6]
It's strange to claim that "it's actually Stadia that made Linux gaming feasible" when there's literally no visible or measurable impact anywhere for any claim you make. Beyond "just trust me".
You are literally arguing that your ignorance is as valid as my experience. And you’re arguing that you didn't see the impact; which was kinda my entire point - there was impact beyond what was visible that propelled Proton forward.
You don’t know how the sausage is made just because you ate a hotdog.
Maybe you should consider things more carefully before making yourself look like an idiot on the internet and simultaneously raising my blood pressure.
There’s no such thing as “native”, all the things you’re talking about are translation layers for hardware instructions themselves, and the overhead for doing software based translation is significantly less than hardware accelerated virtual machines- and we as an industry love those.
The reason for this is because the translations are very cache friendly and happen in userland, so the performance impact is negligible, and the scheduler on Windows is so poor compared to Linux ones that it’s even common for games to perform better on Linux than on Windows.. Which is crazy when you consider the difference in quality of the GPU drivers.
I understand that you want it to “just work”, but that tends to be the experience anyway.
You can do what you want, it’s your life, but this is not a terribly good excuse. Valves “failure” is essentially rectified.
I will add though, that it’s actually Stadia that made linux gaming the most feasible, many game engines (all of the ones I worked on) were ported to Linux to run Stadia, those ports changed essential elements of the engine that would have been slow or difficult to translate; so when Proton came around quite a lot of heavy lifting had gone away. I only say this because Valve gets some credit for a lot of work our Engine programmers did to make Linux viable.